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Post by rickert on Jan 7, 2008 13:19:32 GMT -4
I have posted newly created wrestlers a couple of times on another board (bet you can't figure out which one) only to have them picked apart and borderline ridiculed because of cosmetic things like the order of moves on the offensive level.
It has made me reluctant to post anything anywhere. I welcome suggestions to make cards better and I also don't mind getting feedback to correct errors that would cause the card to perform differently than other released wrestlers. But the order of offensive moves baffles me. There are no such rules about order on the defensive side of the card. So what's the difference?
Also, why does Deathjump have to be on Level 3? I can't find it in Tom's official card rules and I know I see Deathjumps every week where the target is standing and not down.
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Post by weirdjerod on Jan 7, 2008 14:16:40 GMT -4
well, I will say that this group could be termed picky, but having worked with at least a 3rd of this board on boots, I also know that they are supportive and constructive in their criticisms... I have learned more from this group about proper making of boots than I could have from reading anywhere...
as far as the dj question, not sure what the actual reasoning is, it's just how the rules declare it, LOL...
So basically, if you want good, positive feedback to make your boots more Legal and compatible with the official releases, I would definately say post tehm here. But having said that, it's all about fun, if you just want to use them as is, and make them available to people w/o making changes, getting as much "corrections" to them, I would advise starting a yahoo group to make them available... I have a yahoo group for my PNW guys, and it's REALLY easy and quick to set up and run...
just my 2 cents...
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Post by smathis on Jan 7, 2008 16:16:59 GMT -4
I'm pretty picky about boots. But I'm not likely to criticize too much either way. Generally, I take bootlegs and tweak them to fit in with the official cards anyway - so I don't see much point in picking apart other people's work for the sake of picking it apart.
If someone asks me what I think of a bootleg, though, I'll let them know in an honest fashion.
That said, there was a document floating around a while back that outlined Tom's "rules" for creating bootlegs. I downloaded my copy from Cynthia Celeste Miller's "Vintage Mayhem" yahoo group. It's a good guide for creating bootlegs that aren't too over the top.
In the guide, deathjump and out of the ring are always on L3O.
The reasoning for that is because the outcome (in terms of offense) is so severe. Whereas "into the ropes" and "into the turnbuckle" average out to an outcome equating to L2O, "deathjump" and "out of the ring" almost always equate to L3O.
I don't have a problem with people bending or stretching the rules (heck, even Tom does it now and again), as long as they have a good and explicit reason for doing so. I think it's important that someone understand why something is a certain way before they change it. The difference is between changing something on a whim and changing something with an understanding of what else in the game will be affected.
Then again, if someone posted a card I wanted with "deathjump" on L1O, I'd be far more likely to just take the bootleg and bring it into line with the official rules as opposed to pick that person apart to make them change it.
It's their fed. They can do what they want.
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Post by rickert on Jan 7, 2008 17:15:47 GMT -4
That's part of the problem. I got my rules from Tom's game website and it doesn't say that Deathjump is always on L3O.
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Post by holland227 on Jan 7, 2008 17:47:12 GMT -4
Right it is not an official rule, however the severity of the rolls from DJ and OOR chart show that if they were rolled on L2O then it could make the entire match fall apart in one swift move. It takes away from the power of a wrestler to lose in such a lower fashion. 80-85% of the time a wrestler does not lose from a L2O roll and putting them there would greatly hamper that rating.
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Post by holland227 on Jan 7, 2008 17:47:39 GMT -4
And remember picky isnt the word for us, we run a promotion based almost entirely on Boots
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Post by brianu on Jan 7, 2008 17:49:23 GMT -4
IIRC, the rules on the web are an abbreviated version of the Rules printed in a Promoter. And as a rule of thumb, the DJ and OOR are always on L3O on every card. Just like ch G and ch H options are. But at the end of the day, the bootlegs are yours, so just have fun with it.
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Post by Nothing on Jan 7, 2008 17:50:22 GMT -4
This might be of some help. I compiled a few of the "other" rules:
---There must be a way to use all four major game charts on every wrestler's card. Options Ring, Ropes, Ch B, Deathjump, Any Ch (C,D,E or F) Ring, Ch A, Turnbuckle, Deathjump, Any Ch (C,D,E or F) Ring, Ropes, Turnbuckle, Ch G or H, Any Ch (C,D,E or F) Ring, Ch A, Ch B, Deathjump, Ring Ring, Ropes, Ch B, Ch G or H, Ring Ring, Ch A, Turnbuckle, Ch G or H, Ring
“into the ropes” and “into the turnbuckle” only occur on LEVEL 1 or 2 Offense.
“deathjump” and “out of the ring” only occur on LEVEL 3 Offense. (deathjump always comes before out of the ring)
---Each card will have three Chart situations (such as Into the Ropes) and two Choice Situations (such as Choice F).
---Of the three Chart Situations, two must be followed by a choice (c).
---When a Chart Situations appears on Level 1 Offense, it is never followed by a choice (c).
---Agility and Power situations only occur at Level 1 Offense and a roll of "1" on Level 2 Offense.
On Level 1 Offense Choice Situations and Chart Situations occur in between the level 2 moves and the level 3 moves. If there is no level 3 move they occur in the level 2 move area (move 4, 5 or 6).
---On Level 2 and Level 3 Offense, Choice Situations and Chart Situations only occur in between the level 2 moves and the level 3 moves. (On Level 2 Offense a level 2 (ch) move will follow immediately after the chart situations) (On Level 3 Offense a level 3 (ch) move will come right before the chart situations)
---Finishers never appear anywhere but on Level 3 Offense.
---The only Chart Situation that may be repeated twice is Out of the Ring.
---When two Chart Situations occur in a row, the one with a choice (c) comes first. (This rule doesn't apply to Level 3 Offense where deathjump always comes first)
---On defense, there is never a "down-3" on Level 1 Defense (imagine what a wimp that would be!).
---Tag options (tag) decrease as a wrestler becomes "hurt" and then "down."
---Tag options (tag) occur consistently on the defensive level, such as (tag) only occurs for "dazed-1" on Level 1 Defense and only for "hurt-2" on Level 2 Defense.
---Wrestlers usually have more and better comebacks at Level 1 Defense than Level 2 Defense and so on.
---There is only one PIN option per card.
---Almost all wrestlers have a leave the ring option (lv) and it is always on Level 3 Defense.
---Cage Ratings don't differ from PIN ratings by more than two.
---Agility and Power ratings are never better than "-5" or worse than "+5"
---Level 1 moves (such as headlock-1) usually occur on Level 1 Offense and sometimes on Level 2 Offense.
---Weaker moves are always followed by stronger moves at any offensive level.
---(ch G) and (ch H) only occur at Level 3 Offense (some collectible Champions of the Galaxy cards from 1986 have wrestlers with these moves at Level 2 Offense; see the collecting page for more information).
---(ch A) and (ch B) never occur on Level 3 Offense.
(ch A)(ch B)(ch C)(ch F) always follow LEVEL 2 moves.
(ch D)(ch E)(ch G)(ch H) always follow LEVEL 3 moves.
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Post by rickert on Jan 8, 2008 12:49:25 GMT -4
Those were very helpful. I'm not even going to cloud the issue by asking where those "other" rules came from or why they haven't been put together in a single document somewhere. It probably just makes too much sense somehow. But thanks again.
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Post by lwffantrav on Jan 8, 2008 13:38:49 GMT -4
Yes, I admit and most others will admit we are picky. But we want them to be right...
I don't know how much myself and jerod went over the Portland stuff trying to make sure things were right. In my 1st version of the Memphis stuff I have, I still had an error..the deathjump after the out of the ring (although I changed that after I realized it)
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Post by wildfire on Jan 8, 2008 14:43:28 GMT -4
I admit to having vastly inferior knowledge than you guys on both classic wrestling and card rules, so I wont complain.. we definately need more guys for the LWA! Now, if Tom could put out an official set, say, monthly, we'd be OK
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Post by Admin on Jan 8, 2008 18:02:19 GMT -4
All I want is good cards that are close to the official rules, other wise I really don't care...
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Post by troyxavier on Jan 8, 2008 19:47:57 GMT -4
I don't mind small flaws in card stats but I can't stand silly things like deathjump on level 2 offense.
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Post by weirdjerod on Jan 8, 2008 20:04:03 GMT -4
personally, I much prefer Combat to Cowboy...
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