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Post by MT on Nov 25, 2012 14:23:47 GMT -4
If there's one type of specialty match that can get screwed up royally easier than any other, it's got to be the ladder match. The allure of dragging one, two, sometimes three ladders and a dozen chairs into the match seems to obscure the point of the match: to grab the damn belt and win the fucking match!
I just got done watching two really athletic, talented guys have one of the most annoying ladder matches I've seen in recent memory. I'm talking about Willie Mack and Scorpio Sky on episode 100 of CWF Hollywood. Holy shit, they brought the FIRST ladder into the match after a little less than five minutes. The next ladder came into play, then the chairs. They went about TWENTY MINUTES and only actually used the ladder for its intended purpose (climbing) TWICE----in the last two damn minutes of the match. One climb attempt that got stopped, and then the one that won the match.
I don't care how casual a fan a person is, after that long and using the ladders as weapons, props, and springboards ANYONE should be saying "hey, why aren't they setting that thing up and trying to win the match?".
I blame Jeff Hardy.
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Post by maddog1981 on Nov 25, 2012 17:13:37 GMT -4
I'm over-generalizing here but I tend to think there were about 3 good ladder matches:
Both Shawn/Razor matches and Eddie/X-Pac. Past that, there have been some spectacular spotfests thrown in over the years but none of them have ever held up on repeat viewings like those three matches have. You take the shock factor out of those matches and there's little substance to them.
I blame Edge, Christian, the Hardys and the Dudleys for how bad ladder matches have become.
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Post by MT on Nov 25, 2012 17:35:07 GMT -4
In the territory days the ladder served its purpose wonderfully. It was there to climb and it was there to hit a guy with and maybe whip him into the ladder. But for the most part the focus was on winning the match. Shawn and Razor revolutionized the match, but they still put the focus on giving the illusion that they were trying to WIN. The offenders you name in your thread are the ones who started the "stunt show". What that Mack/Sky match showed is that there IS an art to these types of special matches, and not everyone who can put on a good wrestling match can put on a good ladder match.
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Post by toasterboy on Nov 26, 2012 0:56:41 GMT -4
Sorry you guys feel that way about that match. I was there live and, to me, it was insanely entertaining. And I'm not just saying that as a 'company man.' If stuff on our show is bad i'll freely admit it (take, for example, any of my interviews). To me, it was one of the best ladder matches I've seen. I felt it was way more entertaining and told a story better than the Steen/Generico ladder match at PWG that we saw with Tom awhile back. I will say I haven't seen the televised version yet so maybe it lost something.
One thing I hate in ladder matches is the 'slow climb' that guys do. I felt this match kept that to a minimum.
I haven't watched classic 'territory' ladder matches. I'll look for some on YouTube.
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Post by MT on Nov 26, 2012 8:16:01 GMT -4
Grant,
I really like both of those guys and wanted to have nothing but good things to write about the match. When either Sky or Mack is on the show it's "stop and pay attention" time. The match had a bunch of good stuff, and the fans in attendance were into it, so it worked on that level. Watching at home away from the electricity of the moment, I was able to see problems in the logic of it that people caught up in the moment watching live would not. I'd just liked to have seen them at least make a run up the ladder or two at some point before the finish. Barring that, the commentators should have stepped up and really put over that they were more interested in hurting each other than winning the match. In situations like that a good commentator who can analyze and help the guys in the ring tell their story to the TV audience is vital.
I'll be interested to see how Steen and Generico handle the ladder match main event at the next ROH iPPV. Will it be "stunt time"; or will they really sell the importance of winning the ROH belt? Steen's kind of made the title the "ROH Hardcore championship" so I'd expect a bunch of that stuff, but I think they'll still focus on the illusion of trying to win.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2012 11:55:57 GMT -4
I'll be interested to see how Steen and Generico handle the ladder match main event at the next ROH iPPV. Will it be "stunt time"; or will they really sell the importance of winning the ROH belt? Steen's kind of made the title the "ROH Hardcore championship" so I'd expect a bunch of that stuff, but I think they'll still focus on the illusion of trying to win. It's going to be their Steen Wolf match all over again, which was amazing but it was more of a stunt show with super dangerous shit than a smartly worked ladder match. Oh, and Rock vs. Triple H at SummerSlam 98 smokes the SummerSlam 95 HBK vs. Razor match.
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Post by maddog1981 on Nov 26, 2012 12:54:00 GMT -4
I would count that match as good. So 4 ladder matches.
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Post by wildfire on Nov 26, 2012 13:58:59 GMT -4
I enjoyed the Hardys/Dudleys/EC spot fests myself... I only wish they never turned the the Hardys face.. heel Hardys with Michael Hayes were awesome!
I have to get back into CWF Hollywood... maybe over Christmas vacation.
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Post by maddog1981 on Nov 26, 2012 20:46:26 GMT -4
I don't hate those matches but they were bad things in hindsight. They led to people taking stupid risks and bigger and bigger bumps in those kinds of matches. It also destroyed the psychology of the ladder match and led to fans having stupid expectations of what should happen in a ladder match.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2012 5:19:02 GMT -4
I don't hate those matches but they were bad things in hindsight. They led to people taking stupid risks and bigger and bigger bumps in those kinds of matches. It also destroyed the psychology of the ladder match and led to fans having stupid expectations of what should happen in a ladder match. Pretty much this.
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Post by wildfire on Nov 27, 2012 14:39:07 GMT -4
I hear what you guys are saying... definitely made it seems like ladders were made for spotfests, which isn't the case in order matches.
Still, there have been some that were good since that WEREN'T spotfests... Lawler -Miz on Raw comes to mind.. that was great for a TV match.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2012 15:14:24 GMT -4
Forgot about Lawler/Miz. That was a good match, period. Not even for TV, it was just flat out good.
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Post by wildfire on Nov 29, 2012 11:10:03 GMT -4
Yeah.. in retrospect, considering how they de-pushed Miz right after and Lawler's heart attack, know I REALLY REALLY wish they let him win the title (even to lose it the next week), but I thought that at the time, too.
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