|
Post by rickert on Jan 8, 2008 13:16:40 GMT -4
I'm going to try and post her card here. If successful, please let me know if there's anything that needs to be changed. [/b][/td] [td]Height 5’7”; Weight 150; Home Buffalo, NY[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td] Level 1 Offense[/td] [td] Level 1 Defense[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]1. punch - 1 2. collar & elbow hip toss - 1 3. sidewalk slam – 2 (pw) 4. into the turnbuckle 5. double axehandle to chest – 2 6. Texas cloverleaf – 2[/td] [td]1. dazed – 1 (tag) 2. BETH PHOENIX -2 3. BETH PHOENIX - 1 4. BETH PHOENIX - 1 5. dazed – 1 6. hurt - 2[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td] Level 2 Offense[/td] [td] Level 2 Defense[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]1. series of forearms – 2 (ag) 2. double chickenwing facebuster - 2 3. into the ropes © 4. shortarm clothesline – 2 (ch C) 5. Beth Valley Driver – 3 6. Flight of the Phoenix - 3[/td] [td]1. dazed – 1 2. hurt - 2 (tag) 3. hurt - 2 4. BETH PHOENIX - 2 5. dazed - 1 6. BETH PHOENIX - 1[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td] Level 3 Offense[/td] [td] Level 3 Defense[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]1. gutwrench suplex - 2 2. slingshot suplex – 3 (ch G) 3. out of the ring © 4. gorilla press drop - 3 5. DOWN IN FLAMES -3 6. GLAMAZON PLEX (+2)[/td] [td]1. down – 3 (lv) 2. hurt - 2 3. hurt - 2 4. hurt - 2 5. PIN 6 (3) 6. down - 3[/td] [/tr] [tr] [td]Ropes -- B Turnbuckle -- A Ring -- B Deathjump -- C Disqualification -- 5[/td] [td]Agility -- 0 Power -- -4 Cage -- 3[/td] [/tr] [/table] Please keep in mind with regard to her power rating that it is in relationship to other female wrestlers. She should suffer a reduction should she wrestle against a male. Thanks
|
|
|
Post by lwffantrav on Jan 8, 2008 13:33:49 GMT -4
Okay, here are a few changes I see right now.
On (tag) options, they can only be after the level of defense in which they appear.
(tag)'s on Level 1 Defense can only appear after dazed - 1 (tag)'s on Level 2 Defense can only appear after hurt - 2 (tag)'s on Level 3 Defense can only appear after down - 3
JMO. since she isn't a tag wrestler, she has far too many (tag)'s on her card. She would probably get one (tag) on her whole card if I was creating her. She is pretty much a singles wrestler. I would give her one (tag) on her L1D
On the Level 3 Offense, the (deathjump or Ch G or ch H which are the other deathjump options) go before out of the ring. Thus, the slingshot suplex - 3 (ch G) should go before out of the ring and go to the 2.
Anyone correct me if I'm wrong, but I've never seen a into the ropes or into the turnbuckle past the 4. move on Level 2 Offense. This is going to segway into the next thing...
(ch B) is your turnbuckle option, which you have on your Level 1 Offense move 5. BUT, you already have an into the turnbuckle on your card (move 3. on your Level 1 Offense).
Since you have to move up that into the ropes...move up your into the ropes to your 4. on your Level 2 Offense. Move that Texas Cloverleaf down to your 5. move on the Level 2 offense, give it a - 3. But you need another (ch X) move, so strike that (ch B) on L1O...move it down to that 5. move on your L2O and assign it either a (D or E).
|
|
|
Post by rickert on Jan 8, 2008 13:51:25 GMT -4
Okay, here are a few changes I see right now. JMO. since she isn't a tag wrestler, she has far too many (tag)'s on her card. She would probably get one (tag) on her whole card if I was creating her. She is pretty much a singles wrestler. I would give her one (tag) on her L1D On the Level 3 Offense, the (deathjump or Ch G or ch H which are the other deathjump options) go before out of the ring. Thus, the slingshot suplex - 3 (ch G) should go before out of the ring and go to the 2. Anyone correct me if I'm wrong, but I've never seen a into the ropes or into the turnbuckle past the 4. move on Level 2 Offense. This is going to segway into the next thing... (ch B) is your turnbuckle option, which you have on your Level 1 Offense move 5. BUT, you already have an into the turnbuckle on your card (move 3. on your Level 1 Offense). Since you have to move up that into the ropes...move up your into the ropes to your 4. on your Level 2 Offense. Move that Texas Cloverleaf down to your 5. move on the Level 2 offense, give it a - 3. But you need another (ch X) move, so strike that (ch B) on L1O...move it down to that 5. move on your L2O and assign it either a (D or E). I'm going to have to get some of this clarified by you or someone else before I make any more changes. Good catch on the L2D tag needing to be after hurt rather than down. I made that correction. I also took away one tag but left the others. By my count Beth has been involved in eight tag matches since she reappeared in Glamazon form a few months ago. One of them was in a PPV. With her physical nature I think it unlikely she would be helpless in the ring for too long without being able to get away enough to tag her partner. I was given a document that said the following was a legal wrestler setup: Ring, Ropes, Turnbuckle, CH G or H, Any CH. Beth adheres to that. Also, the into the ropes is as low as it is because the "rules" that I have say that it must be between the Level 2 and 3 moves. Until I get those final two graphs settled, I'll refrain from following any of your other suggestions. Thanks for the input.
|
|
|
Post by smathis on Jan 8, 2008 14:15:38 GMT -4
That card looks pretty good, rickert. If you're open for suggestion, I'd consider the following changes... Offense- moving "into the turnbuckle" further down on L1O. It's not a hard and fast rule but on official cards it usually shows up on 4,5 or 6.
- move "(ch B)" down to L2O and changing it to "(ch C)". Having "into the turnbuckle" and "(ch B)" on the same card is a little redundant. I'd understand it if 75% of her ringwork involved slinging someone into the turnbuckle. But I don't see that as the case. For future reference, "ch B" == "into the turnbuckle", "ch A" == "into the ropes" and "ch G" or "ch H" == "deathjump".
- I'd actually move "Beth Valley Driver" off of L1O and move it down to L2O. Having a "3" move on L1O that isn't related to a (pw) or (ag) is a little overpowered. And having (effectively) 5 "2" moves on L2O makes Beth pretty weak. This would work for someone who has to pull out a lucky win but otherwise can't seal the deal. But Beth seems a bit more methodical than that to me.
- On L3O, I'd move "slingshot suplex – 3 (ch G)". "ch G" or "ch H" moves usually appear before "out of the ring".
- I think the finishers are a little overpowered. Having two finishers and one finisher rated at +2 is really harsh. It may not have come up in playtesting because Beth's L2O is so weak. But it makes her card unbalanced against the official cards.
- I'd change the first finisher to "Down in Flames - 3". It's a-OK to have a named or signature move be a non-Finisher. If Beth absolutely, positively HAS to have 2 Finishers, I'd probably make the other one "GLAMAZON PLEX (0)". Only wrestlers in the category of Gotch or Thesz should have a "(0)", "(+2)" combo of finishers. In female wrestling terms, that equates to Moolah and that's about it. (Although I'd probably model Moolah after the Sheik's card.)
DEFENSE- On defense, Beth should reflect her monster status. She's just this big hulk of a woman who tears through her opposition. Hence, my reasoning for some of the Offense changes.
- On L1D, I'd turn one of the "dazed - 1 (tag)" options to "BETH PHEONIX - 1".
- On L2D, I'd turn one of the "BETH PHOENIX - 1" options to "BETH PHEONIX - 2".
- The "(tag)" option on defense should be on one of the "hurt - 2" results, not the "dazed - 1" result.
- On L3D, I'd up her pin rating. She's just this big monster. So I'd either give her a "PIN 7(4)" while turning her "down - 3" result into a "hurt - 2". Believe it or not, this will make her much more of a monster than the current defensive setup, which makes her more of an endurance wrestler. She seems modeled more after Gotch than Volkoff. I'd argue her style (and status) has more in common with Volkoff.
- As another option with L3D, you could give her a "PIN 6(3)" and keep the second "down - 3" but I'd then turn one of her "hurt - 2" results on L2D into a "dazed - 1". This gives her a little better pin rating but she'd take a beating more often. The extra "dazed - 1" on L2D would make her harder to hurt but she'd stay down longer than with the previous defensive setup. I think either of these defensive approaches would give you the power-broad that Beth represents.
OTHER- For the chart ratings, I'd tone down her Ring rating to a "B". I have no real problems with the rest of the ratings, although Deathjump could probably drop to "C" if the card proves over-powered. "BAAB" is really tough for someone at Beth's level. I'd expect Sherri or maybe the Fabulous Moolah to be at that level. But not Beth. Not yet.
- Remember, "deathjump" isn't a wrestler's capacity to perform a deathjump. It represents the wrestler's capacity to AVOID a deathjump. If real-life Beth consistently rolls out of the way to watch her opponent fall flat on the mat, then she's a "B". An "A" would be someone who is a real conniver or somesuch, like Bockwinkel. In my eyes, "deathjump" has less to do with Agility and more to do with ring-smarts -- although most people equate it with Agility.
Good moveset. Take the above suggestions with a grain of salt. As always, you can run with any kind of bootleg you want. A lot of times I find it's hard not to design bootlegs that will compete with other bootlegs. So, getting or building one that's a little too powerful only snowballs in the end. I tend to design or revise bootlegs with the long view of how they'll match up against official cards. The suggestions I give would make Beth a solid contender against the official female Legends. She'd stomp Ida Mae but would have a hard time against Martel. I think that's about right. YMMV.
|
|
|
Post by weirdjerod on Jan 8, 2008 14:41:21 GMT -4
Well, thanx to lwffantrav and smathis for pretty much taking everything I was going to say and beating me to it, LOL...
Most importantly remember, it's your boot and most of us are more than happy to take them as-is and adapt them to our own uses, LOL... GREAT job on the moveset... Thanx so much for sharing her here and I know there are several of the guys on this board (myself included) who are always looking for quality women wrestlers...
|
|
|
Post by smathis on Jan 8, 2008 14:50:18 GMT -4
Ditto on what Jerod said.
Most of the time, I'll take a bootleg's moveset and then run them through changes like I mentioned above for my personal use.
For me, the moveset is paramount and you did a solid job on that.
I'd implement the changes before I'd use the card in my fed but, then again, it's just a matter of moving somethings around and changing a Pin rating. The end result is that I'll now have a Beth Phoenix boot (woot!). That wouldn't have happened if you hadn't posted the moveset.
Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by rickert on Jan 8, 2008 15:30:20 GMT -4
Thanks for the encouragement and advice. I've modified her somewhat with regard to the suggestions. Any further feedback is still welcome.
|
|
|
Post by smathis on Jan 8, 2008 16:01:34 GMT -4
At the risk of sounding or appearing picky... - the "(ch C)" option on L2O should appear right before the "into the ropes" result. On L2O, "move - 2 (ch X)" results appear immediately before chart results ("into the ropes" and "into the turnbuckle") and "move - 3 (ch X)" appear immediately after.
- I don't think I communicated my L1D changes very well. The card now has one too many "BETH PHOENIX - 2" results. I'd recommend turning one of them to "BETH PHOENIX - 1". It doesn't matter which one. Having two "BETH PHOENIX - 2" results on L1D would make her play more ploddingly. She'd be hard to put down but slower to take charge. Leaving the "BETH PHOENIX - 2" on L2D would make her more dynamic. I tend to favor the latter for Beth but the difference is really just splitting hairs. Having three "BETH PHOENIX - 2" results on her card would make her way too tough, in my opinion.
Thanks for being so open to feedback. I know sometimes it seems that people are just being negative but that's not the case at all. The card is shaping up quite well. I think you'll be able to take the feedback you've received here and use for many more bootlegs to come. One day I'll post how I do bootlegs. It's really a lot easier than writing them from scratch and guarantees that a card is done right (in Tom's terms) the first time.
|
|
|
Post by rickert on Jan 8, 2008 16:07:40 GMT -4
At the risk of sounding or appearing picky... - the "(ch C)" option on L2O should appear right before the "into the ropes" result. On L2O, "move - 2 (ch X)" results appear immediately before chart results ("into the ropes" and "into the turnbuckle") and "move - 3 (ch X)" appear immediately after.
- I don't think I communicated my L1D changes very well. The card now has one too many "BETH PHOENIX - 2" results. I'd recommend turning one of them to "BETH PHOENIX - 1". It doesn't matter which one. Having two "BETH PHOENIX - 2" results on L1D would make her play more ploddingly. She'd be hard to put down but slower to take charge. Leaving the "BETH PHOENIX - 2" on L2D would make her more dynamic. I tend to favor the latter for Beth but the difference is really just splitting hairs. Having three "BETH PHOENIX - 2" results on her card would make her way too tough, in my opinion.
Thanks for being so open to feedback. I know sometimes it seems that people are just being negative but that's not the case at all. The card is shaping up quite well. I think you'll be able to take the feedback you've received here and use for many more bootlegs to come. One day I'll post how I do bootlegs. It's really a lot easier than writing them from scratch and guarantees that a card is done right (in Tom's terms) the first time. OK. Try this one on for size. I would love to see your method for doing bootlegs. I have many more females I'd like to create for my upcoming fed but would like them to require less tinkering and tweaking if possible.
|
|
|
Post by smathis on Jan 8, 2008 16:35:19 GMT -4
Looks great. I'd totally use that card.
In fact....
<snip>
Thanks!
I'll try and sit down and make a card sometime soon. I'll post the process in detail so everyone can see how I make/revise bootlegs.
Requires a lot less tinkering.
|
|
|
Post by rickert on Jan 8, 2008 19:05:31 GMT -4
Looks great. I'd totally use that card. In fact.... <snip> Thanks! I'll try and sit down and make a card sometime soon. I'll post the process in detail so everyone can see how I make/revise bootlegs. Requires a lot less tinkering. I will anxiously wait for it. Thanks for your help. I hope others will like it and find a use for her as well.
|
|
|
Post by Nothing on Jan 8, 2008 20:37:28 GMT -4
[/li][li] the "(ch C)" option on L2O should appear right before the "into the ropes" result. On L2O, "move - 2 (ch X)" results appear immediately before chart results ("into the ropes" and "into the turnbuckle") and "move - 3 (ch X)" appear immediately after. [/quote] On L2O doesn't a level -2 (ch X) move usually follow immediately after the chart moves? 1. series of forearms – 2 (ag) 2. double chickenwing facebuster - 2 3. into the ropes © 4. shortarm clothesline – 2 (ch C) 5. Beth Valley Driver – 3 6. Flight of the Phoenix - 3
|
|
|
Post by smathis on Jan 8, 2008 23:18:56 GMT -4
I double-checked the official cards and you're right. I stand corrected. (ch) moves on L2O always follow the chart options. Good catch. Thanks. [/li][li] the "(ch C)" option on L2O should appear right before the "into the ropes" result. On L2O, "move - 2 (ch X)" results appear immediately before chart results ("into the ropes" and "into the turnbuckle") and "move - 3 (ch X)" appear immediately after. [/quote] On L2O doesn't a level -2 (ch X) move usually follow immediately after the chart moves? 1. series of forearms – 2 (ag) 2. double chickenwing facebuster - 2 3. into the ropes © 4. shortarm clothesline – 2 (ch C) 5. Beth Valley Driver – 3 6. Flight of the Phoenix - 3 [/quote]
|
|
|
Post by rickert on Jan 8, 2008 23:43:59 GMT -4
I changed her again. I appreciate all due dilligence, but I think this thread is yet more evidence that a definitive set of guidelines needs to be put together by someone or some group.
|
|
|
Post by Nothing on Jan 9, 2008 9:46:34 GMT -4
Here we go. I made some changes to the compilation I had before. If there's anything that's wrong or that needs to be added now is the time. Let me know.
---There must be a way to use all four major game charts on every wrestler's card. Options Ring, Ropes, Ch B, Deathjump, Any Ch (C,D,E or F) Ring, Ch A, Turnbuckle, Deathjump, Any Ch (C,D,E or F) Ring, Ropes, Turnbuckle, Ch G or H, Any Ch (C,D,E or F) Ring, Ch A, Ch B, Deathjump, Ring Ring, Ropes, Ch B, Ch G or H, Ring Ring, Ch A, Turnbuckle, Ch G or H, Ring
“into the ropes” and “into the turnbuckle” only occur on LEVEL 1 or 2 Offense.
“deathjump” and “out of the ring” only occur on LEVEL 3 Offense. (deathjump always comes before out of the ring)
---Each card will have three Chart situations (such as Into the Ropes) and two Choice Situations (such as Choice F).
---Of the three Chart Situations, two must be followed by a choice (c).
---When a Chart Situations appears on Level 1 Offense, it is never followed by a choice (c).
---Agility and Power situations only occur at Level 1 Offense and a roll of "1" on Level 2 Offense.
On Level 1 Offense Choice Situations and Chart Situations occur in between the level 2 moves and the level 3 moves. If there is no level 3 move they occur in the level 2 move area (move 4, 5 or 6).
---On Level 2 and Level 3 Offense, Choice Situations and Chart Situations only occur in between the level 2 moves and the level 3 moves. (On Level 2 Offense a level 2 (ch) move will follow immediately after the chart situations) (On Level 3 Offense a level 3 (ch) move will come right before the chart situations)
---Finishers never appear anywhere but on Level 3 Offense.
---The only Chart Situation that may be repeated twice is Out of the Ring.
---When two Chart Situations occur in a row, the one with a choice (c) comes first. (This rule doesn't apply to Level 3 Offense where deathjump always comes first)
---On defense, there is never a "down-3" on Level 1 Defense (imagine what a wimp that would be!).
---Tag options (tag) decrease as a wrestler becomes "hurt" and then "down."
---Tag options (tag) occur consistently on the defensive level, such as (tag) only occurs for "dazed-1" on Level 1 Defense and only for "hurt-2" on Level 2 Defense.
---Wrestlers usually have more and better comebacks at Level 1 Defense than Level 2 Defense and so on.
---There is only one PIN option per card.
---Almost all wrestlers have a leave the ring option (lv) and it is always on Level 3 Defense.
---Cage Ratings don't differ from PIN ratings by more than two.
---Agility and Power ratings are never better than "-5" or worse than "+5"
---Level 1 moves (such as headlock-1) usually occur on Level 1 Offense and sometimes on Level 2 Offense.
---Weaker moves are always followed by stronger moves at any offensive level.
---(ch G) and (ch H) only occur at Level 3 Offense (some collectible Champions of the Galaxy cards from 1986 have wrestlers with these moves at Level 2 Offense; see the collecting page for more information).
---(ch A) and (ch B) never occur on Level 3 Offense.
(ch A)(ch B)(ch C)(ch F) always follow LEVEL 2 moves.
(ch D)(ch E)(ch G)(ch H) always follow LEVEL 3 moves.
|
|