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Post by MT on Dec 1, 2013 9:41:21 GMT -4
This article from a comic book website makes a great parallel between the psychology of wrestling and superhero comics, and what works and doesn't in both. If it has become so obvious what is wrong with the WWE product right now that it's being outed on a COMIC BOOK website, then why can't the WWE get with the program? www.bleedingcool.com/2013/11/30/oh-vienna-a-filthy-orphan-by-nevs-coleman/
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Post by maddog1981 on Dec 1, 2013 12:14:12 GMT -4
My biggest issue with that is calling out John Cena. There are a million problems with the WWE but I don't believe John Cena is a problem. He's willing to put guys over, he gives a shit ton to guys in feuds. But the booking always fucks them up coming off that Cena feud. It reminds me of right before the Rock left in the mid 2000s. He would put a couple of guys over and then HHH would follow him around burying those guys.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2013 14:37:17 GMT -4
My biggest issue with that is calling out John Cena. There are a million problems with the WWE but I don't believe John Cena is a problem. He's willing to put guys over, he gives a shit ton to guys in feuds. But the booking always fucks them up coming off that Cena feud. It reminds me of right before the Rock left in the mid 2000s. He would put a couple of guys over and then HHH would follow him around burying those guys. I don't remember anyone Rock feuded with in that period that Triple H also had a program with and buried except maybe Booker T. Rock's programs from 01-04 were: - Kurt Angle - Steve Austin - Booker T. - Chris Jericho - Hulk Hogan - Brock Lesnar - Steve Austin - Hulk Hogan - Evolution Of all those guys, in mid 2000s WWE, Hunter only feuded with Booker T. and that was before Rock left.
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Post by maddog1981 on Dec 1, 2013 14:59:26 GMT -4
Jericho is a huge one you're missing there. HHH buried him after Rock worked with him towards the end of the Invasion angle.
Booker T is a big one.
Rock did a job to Hurricane to give him a little rub and HHH destroyed him a few weeks after that.
Angle as well, HHH never made Angle look reasonably well.
And you're even dead wrong about Lesnar because HHH got his vanity belt right after Rock put him over.
And HHH did kind of fuck over Randy Orton, more than once.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2013 15:52:01 GMT -4
Jericho is a huge one you're missing there. HHH buried him after Rock worked with him towards the end of the Invasion angle. He didn't bury Jericho any more than any other actual main event guy that Jericho lost to did. Jericho was (and still is) a lot like Punk used to be where he'd bounce around the card. I noted that. Rock did a job to Hurricane to give him a little rub and HHH destroyed him a few weeks after that. Because Rock jobbed to Hurricane was putting him over so huge. It was a TV match that meant absolutely nothing and even Dave Meltzer's called that one of the more pointless jobs of Rock's career because it did nothing for Hurricane. Angle as well, HHH never made Angle look reasonably well. Let's take a look at what a burial in pro wrestling is: "The worked lowering (relegation) of a popular wrestler's status in the eyes of the fans. It is the act of a promoter or booker causing a wrestler to lose popularity by forcing him to lose in squash matches, continuously, and/or participate in unentertaining or degrading storylines." That doesn't apply to Hunter vs. Angle AT ALL. And you're even dead wrong about Lesnar because HHH got his vanity belt right after Rock put him over. Again, let's take a look at what a burial in pro wrestling is: "The worked lowering (relegation) of a popular wrestler's status in the eyes of the fans. It is the act of a promoter or booker causing a wrestler to lose popularity by forcing him to lose in squash matches, continuously, and/or participate in unentertaining or degrading storylines." Because Brock was lowered down the card. Brock totally got squashed a bunch when Hunter got the WHC, which they created because they wanted each brand to have a champion and really at that point in 2002 who the fuck is going to be the champion on RAW? Brock totally didn't main event the Rumble, WrestleMania and Judgment Day in 2003. I'm just going with the dual branded PPVs there, Brock main evented every fucking SmackDown PPV pretty much but yeah, totally buried by Hunter. Brock totally wasn't the clear top guy from 2002-2004. And HHH did kind of fuck over Randy Orton, more than once. I'd make the argument that he didn't bury Orton in 2004/2005 but having him end Orton's reign three weeks in was fucking stupid. And again, let's take a look at what a burial in pro wrestling is: "The worked lowering (relegation) of a popular wrestler's status in the eyes of the fans. It is the act of a promoter or booker causing a wrestler to lose popularity by forcing him to lose in squash matches, continuously, and/or participate in unentertaining or degrading storylines." Actually, using that definition of a 'burial'...Hunter didn't bury ANYBODY you named except Booker T. and Hurricane.
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Post by MT on Dec 1, 2013 15:52:19 GMT -4
Cena IS THE MAIN PROBLEM. He doesn't sell anything. How many times has he been thrashed on a PPV and then he comes out doing the smiling, saluting, wise cracking Cena routine the next night on RAW? A LOT! The fact that everything slides off his back makes EVERYONE he works with end up looking weak. Giving a guy a win doesn't mean a damn thing compared to the way you do it. The way they book him makes it worse. Remember when the main event of that one can't-remember-the-name-because-they-all-run-together PPV where it was supposed to be him and Rock versus Miz and R-Truth? BUT HE BEAT THEM BOTH IN A HANDICAP MATCH RIGHT BEFORE THE PPV! Why pay to see Rock AND Cena beat up guys Cena beat by himself? If Hogan would have acted like Andre wasn't a threat, making poopy jokes and smiling before Mania 3, the proceeded to come on the next weekend of TV and make more jokes about Andre, the WWF wouldn't have been around long enough for Cena to wreck it in the 2000s.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2013 15:55:48 GMT -4
I was kind of hoping the loss to Rock and the massive ass kicking Lesnar gave him last year would have forced him to evolve as a character...but nope. Nothing's a threat and if he loses at the end of the day, well hey I STILL GET A REMATCH~! I like John Cena as a worker but holy shit I'm sick of that character.
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Post by MT on Dec 1, 2013 16:11:00 GMT -4
The thing with writing an effective hero, something sitcom writers the WWe likes to hire don't understand, is building an empathetic rapport with the audience. The hero needs to be vulnerable and make the fans believe so in order for them to have any real emotional attachment to what happens to him. If they never fear for the heroes safety, or never doubt for a second that he can win, they will never get completely involved in the story. The way Cena smirks, jokes, and shrugs before and after everything destroys any chance of the average fan has of identifying with him.
Simple stuff, as old as the first stories ever told.
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Post by lowtrav on Dec 1, 2013 16:37:06 GMT -4
Cant argue Mark. The first sign I saw of it was way back at the Survivor Series and Carlito and his partner (what was his name?!) had "stabbed" Cena, putting him out of action. He showed back up a few weeks later, nothing taped and showed no ill effects and destroyed them.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2013 16:43:34 GMT -4
I remember Eddie asked him where the scar was and Cena said something to the effect of "doc fixed me up real good".
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Post by lowtrav on Dec 1, 2013 17:16:35 GMT -4
I remember Eddie asked him where the scar was and Cena said something to the effect of "doc fixed me up real good". Oh dear God, you're kidding
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2013 17:35:13 GMT -4
Nope, that was the explanation and I was like "Yeah, or you didn't really get stabbed and they could have done something better than that." They were trying to play on how Cena was hip hop and I guess stabbings were the in thing in 2004.
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Post by lowtrav on Dec 1, 2013 19:36:20 GMT -4
Nope, that was the explanation and I was like "Yeah, or you didn't really get stabbed and they could have done something better than that." They were trying to play on how Cena was hip hop and I guess stabbings were the in thing in 2004. Just like the link said, sigh. Logically, any of us would have said, "Um, I know he's a major player for our company, but you know, if he came bandaged up, obviously hurting (that nasty wrestling word "selling") but still gave a good fight...you know how much respect he'd get not only from females and kids, but the male base as well. I'm guessing McBoobs would then yell " OUR FANS DON'T WANT LOGIC! THEY ONLY WANT SUPERMAN! THE KIDS WILL CHEER, WOMEN WILL CREAM! NEXT!!!!"
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Post by maddog1981 on Dec 2, 2013 1:33:19 GMT -4
I agree the character is stale. But they are paralyzed by the fear of turning him heel. It's a shame because he's one of the few top guys that's ever gotten it as far as trying to pull people up with him. But the WWE just settles for status quo anymore.
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Post by MT on Dec 2, 2013 5:36:48 GMT -4
The character being stale is not the argument. That act would work for years if it was DONE PROPERLY. And that guy has not elevated ONE. SINGLE. GUY. in over ten years! The sole focus is and always has been on HIM and how unbeatable, handsome, brave, and strong he is. When he does lose he comes on RAW the next night smiling and says words to the effect of "Oh, I lost a match. Well that guy's still a poopy pants." Fans laugh AT the heel and no one takes him seriously if the hero doesn't. Again, the hero becomes the fan/reader/viewers empathetic avatar into that world. The way Cena acts and is written for, the ONLY people who buy it are young kids. This is why the schism between young Cena fans and adult detractors has always been so deep: he takes a lot of adults straight out of the story because he's so unbelievable.
Look at every successful Hogan program. That guy could make anyone from Kamala to Mr Perfect to Earthquake look like a threat and acted as if the entire fate of the world hung in the balance of his match at Nassau Coliseum. Look at the way Austin wasn't afraid to look vulnerable and get down and dirty. Now look at Cena being too cool for the room and not bothered by anything that ever happens to him and understand why there are no top heels.
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