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Post by MT on Jan 15, 2012 20:16:55 GMT -4
History says he was the champion, I say he was called the champion going to the ring so he could put over Bruno. So he was recognized as the first champ, but he never won the belt and he never successfully defended it. In a very concrete way, his title "reign" began and ended in the same match. I would not consider that a "title reign" but it's all semantics I suppose.
He'll forever be considered the first WWWF champion, but to me it's more symbolic. It was the best way to make a claim for world title lineage this way as opposed to putting the belt on Bruno straightaway or making it a match to determine the first champ. There was never any intention to have Rogers be anything more than a fall guy for Bruno, who was the guy they wanted as champ from day one (rightfully, I might add).
I do enjoy that we can argue about this, seeing as how it was (probably) well before any of us were born.
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Post by maddog1981 on Jan 15, 2012 20:19:49 GMT -4
They left the NWA because they wanted Buddy Rogers as the champion to draw in MSG. Thesz didn't draw as well there. If you really want to get into it, they kept recognizing Rogers as World Champion from one of his NWA reigns and changed it over to being WWWF Champion.
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Post by tyguy on Jan 15, 2012 20:23:51 GMT -4
Not much point to discussing/arguing about it. "Official" wrestling history is what it is. Two of the four Nick Bockwinkel AWA titles were handed to him too.
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Post by MT on Jan 15, 2012 20:29:38 GMT -4
Bockwinkel was a god among men. His title reigns were decreed from on high.
I don't buy the story that they wanted Rogers on top. It appears more likely that Rogers was broken down and they didn't want him, but they wanted the cache of saying Bruno beat the NWA champ, therfor making the WWWF belt seem more important. Thus the political maneuvering before the split.
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Post by maddog1981 on Jan 15, 2012 20:35:45 GMT -4
He wasn't broken down until right after they handed him the belt. They handed him the belt, he had a heart attack, Bruno beats him quick. Rogers gets better, they start pushing a rematch and Rogers retires instead due to health. He wasn't even 2 years removed from his first NWA World Title reign at that point.
Bruno was going to get the belt eventually because he was popular but Buddy Rogers was a mainstay in the WWWF for years before they gave him the WWWF Title. That was part of the reason the NWA didn't like him as champion, he was seen primarily as a Northeast wrestler.
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Post by MT on Jan 15, 2012 20:42:44 GMT -4
That's the story that's been out there, but there's another line that says the story was a cover all along. Over the years people have pointed to several discrepancies that seem to discount the popularized version of events, and do seem to show that the plan all along was for things to go down exactly as they did.
You know, this is probably why people still argue stuff like this and Gotch/Hackenschmidt: now nothing goes down without the story getting out within minutes. This kind of thing is all we've got that's still clouded in mystery.
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Post by maddog1981 on Jan 15, 2012 20:50:15 GMT -4
I think if you look at it objectively, I think they wanted Sammartino and Rogers as their top face and heel. Rogers obviously had issues that kept that from happening. I could have seen them trading the belt a couple of times if Rogers had stayed healthy. I still think he had a legit reign.
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Post by Peter F on Jan 15, 2012 22:58:44 GMT -4
I can't see the WWWF doing multiple title switches like that. The company was never about that until the 1990's--it was all about strong babyface champions running through challengers. Bruno was thought of as The Man and Rogers was simply a transitional heel like every other heel to hold the title pre-expansion (Graham kind-of excepted, but only kind of).
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Post by maddog1981 on Jan 15, 2012 23:37:30 GMT -4
Graham was really just an extended transition.
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Post by todd on Jan 16, 2012 1:43:56 GMT -4
Graham was really just an extended transition. The reason for Graham's nine or ten month title run probably had something to do with him being a popular heel. Graham wanted to turn face really bad at one point but the McMahon family wouldn't hear of it.
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Post by MT on Jan 16, 2012 9:04:54 GMT -4
Graham was hot at the time, McMahon was stubborn and refused to deviate from the formula and try something new (Superstar as a colorful face character). In hindsight, it's easy to see that some things run in the family; or perhaps the McMahon's get more set in their ways and make bad business mistakes with age and this is what shows with Jr. now.
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Post by Peter F on Jan 16, 2012 10:28:37 GMT -4
Graham was hot for precisely that 10-month run. After that his physical deterioration began (and he wasn't a great worker to begin with) and there would be no way he could carry a company as champion. I suppose one could blame that on his losing the title and subsequent loss of motivation, but historically guys whose ONLY plus is their ripped steroid physique don't tend to have long shelf lives. The whole "Graham could have been Stone Cold before Stone Cold" story is a complete myth.
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Post by maddog1981 on Jan 16, 2012 12:38:11 GMT -4
Graham couldn't really cut a promo either. I've watched several MSG shows from his era and he stands out for just how bad he is. Hogan really gets a lot of flak but he was miles ahead of Graham in every aspect of wrestling. Graham seemed like he got popularly due to his novelty.
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Post by todd on Jan 16, 2012 13:04:12 GMT -4
Graham wasn't the best worker or do the best promos but he paved the way for guys like Hogan and Ventura. The Superstar gimmick was a great character.
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Post by MT on Jan 16, 2012 14:03:59 GMT -4
Graham was hot for precisely that 10-month run. After that his physical deterioration began (and he wasn't a great worker to begin with) and there would be no way he could carry a company as champion. I suppose one could blame that on his losing the title and subsequent loss of motivation, but historically guys whose ONLY plus is their ripped steroid physique don't tend to have long shelf lives. The whole "Graham could have been Stone Cold before Stone Cold" story is a complete myth. I think your usage of "myth" is a bit inaccurate. Surely, it didn't happen so it's impossible to speculate, though. I don't know who thinks he'd have fit the Stone Cold mold; more like a better version of Dusty Rhodes. At any rate, in Graham's biography he says the depression of being dropped and taken entirely out of the plan was what caused the spiral in his mental and physical state. All I can do is take that at face value. I think he would've had a few good years left in him under optimal circumstances, but again it's impossible to know with any certainty. As far as Graham being "bad" on promos as maddog states; the guy at his best had a helluva rap. He ruined himself with his recreational drug use, but he had an apex during his title reign where he was one of the best all-around from an entertainment aspect. I've seen and heard some incredible Superstar Graham promos, along with the bad ones. It kind of all shakes down to what Todd essentially stated: he was the "template" for the guys who came after him. He took all of those colorful pieces and put them together in a way that captivated a generation of guys and allowed them to "think outside of the box" and create unique personae that changed wrestling as we know it. The same cannot be said for Backlund, who was for the most part dreadful on promos, really not very slick from a pro wrestling standpoint, and not very charismatic. It was a real mystery why he remained on top so long if one does not ascribe to the "it was a bet McMahon took to see if he really could get ANYONE over as champ" story.
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